TL;DR VERSION:
Ideal world: all people in the party respond to each other, thus coming to a pace that is acceptable to all. Tank pulls faster than he or she was before, so the guilty puller stops pulling sheeyit when that’s the tank’s job. Everybody learns their roles, gets to 90 and performs admirably in raids, instances and whatnot.
Real world: Tank pulls faster than he or she was before, but the guilty puller keeps on pulling sheeyit when that’s the tank’s job because he or she wants to go faster still and there is no consequence for not working at the pace others would prefer. Tank quits tanking since DPS is going to tank anyway, healer develops psychological issues, DPS lols and says “I can [insert role here] better than you.” Everybody ever QQs over LFD wait times and the jerks who ruin the community.
Or they just pull crap and dump the party.
Some of this stems from the LFD votekick, which is the only immediate and effective reprisal for idiocy. Its mysterious inner workings seem to be something like this: if there’s a group where someone is disrupting the party equilibrium and/or getting everybody killed, I cannot kick him if the system deems me to be too votekick happy and/or if he’s already been kicked ninety million times and/or anybody is in combat which we probably are because the person pulls crap ahead of the party (which is probably why I wanted to kick him in the first place), and/or while there’s a loot roll going on for even the merest green which is made worse when said person is AFK and, you know, not rolling.
There may even be secret rules like, “You can’t kick Trollolololman on his aunt’s birthday” for all we know. Also, if it takes like ten minutes to complete the dungeon but you can’t kick Jerkface for another fifteen minutes, you’ve just experienced the very definition of futility – that is, votekick has absolutey no useful result whatsofreakingever.
This is stupid. It’s time for a new setup where we let people kick people – in essence, let people police themselves.
More Words Version Behind the Cut
I couldn’t dig up much in the way of official wordage on how the vote kick system in LFD works. It seems fairly certain that the current setup assumes the player doing the kicking is the problem – not the person (or even the bot) who is causing trouble for the group as a whole. In essence, it isn’t “protect the party from the person,” it’s “protect the person from the party.” For example, WoWPedia and WoWwiki have copy/pasted quotes from blue posts dating to way old versions (3.whatever), such as this:
“Players using the Dungeon Finder who rarely vote to kick players from a group, or rarely abandon groups before a dungeon is complete, will find that the Vote Kick option will have no cooldown. For players who frequently abandon groups or vote to kick other players, the Vote Kick option will be kept on a cooldown. This functionality will adjust itself as a player’s behavior while using the Dungeon Finder changes.”
Note how it says nothing about the target player of the votekick doing annoying or deadly things.
Yep I’m Horrified All Right
He had res sickness AND HE STILL PULLED. Wanting to kick this charmer is, apparently, a problem.
People have said to me that it’s set up this way to prevent trolls from abusing the system and kicking folks for no good reason other than the lolz. Here’s the thing though – in every group I’ve been in (yes yes, the plural of anecdote isn’t data), the troll isn’t the person doing the kicking. It’s the person being the pain in the tush because there is no consequence for acting like an impatient, inconsiderate asshat. The target player can persist in obnoxious behavior as often as he damn well feels like it if he doesn’t get votekicked, because there’s no other way to get rid of him. He can continue engaging in obnoxious behavior even if he DOES get votekicked because he won’t get Deserter status, which prevents you from queueing again for a half hour.
(And since when do LFD trollytypes from different realms actually work together to kick random players, anyway? Am I missing some sort of nefarious conspiracy here?)
You know, I’m just gonna throw this out there: if one person initiates the kick and two others agree, then let the target player be kicked. We’ve spent too long worrying over the players who get kicked for gearscore or low DPS. They aren’t penalized for being kicked and can queue again, inconvenient as it may be. We need the power of looser votekick rules to deal with people who go AFK for long periods of time, cause the party harm or are jerks in general – there’s no other way to issue an ultimatum for that type of behavior. Words won’t do it and social guilt won’t either, because this is LFD. So let those folks get the boot. They DESERVE to get kicked from parties. Repeatedly if necessary.
A player cannot be kicked for x number of minutes or hours.
HOLY CRAP THAT’S INSANITY
He can’t be kicked for another FOUR HOURS.
I have seen times ranging from seconds to four hours. If the delay remaining is under ten seconds, just let the player be kicked now. Any wait period over five or even ten minutes is ridiculous given the speed at which most folks rocket through dungeons. Any duration longer than the time needed to actually complete the dungeon is pointless – you can’t kick them, ever, no matter how badly they treat you or the party. With the current setup, you can only leave (or abandon, whatever you’d like to call it) and get Deserter status for refusing to feed the trolls/get stressed out/play in a world where inconsiderate behavior is the norm.
Look, beating your head up against a brick wall does nothing to build community, protect people from trollish behavior or help people learn how to cooperate with each other. It makes tanks quit and turns the rest into cynics who talk about how Barrens chat was better than Trade and woe the WoW community is a piece of crap nowadays RIP Vanilla forever. I’d gladly take Deserter status over dying with every other pull, and I’m the sort of person who tries to teach huntards how to turn off Growl.
A player cannot be kicked during loot rolls.
This one is troublesome because it happens on any roll, even for crappy greens. When I say crappy greens, I’m not even talking about gear that could be used for transmog – I’m talking about things like black diamonds from Blackrock, which are used for nothing unless you’re a jewelcrafter (and even then, only for a brief period while leveling up). And yeah, those AFKers – when it comes to that oh so valuable black diamond (25 silver!), you have no choice but to wait until the loot roll times out on them, which is something like three minutes. NOBODY is waiting for three minutes for this to happen, unless the ENTIRE party goes on a smoke break or something. Nope, the rest of the party is going to barrel onwards, which leads to the next restriction:
A player cannot be kicked during combat.
*!@#ing Go
Seems logical, right? The thing is, dungeon dynamics have shifted. It’s now all about the fast pulls, large pulls, AoE, go go go go you slowass tank. If you get a group decked out in heirlooms, this mode of operation becomes even more apparent since you’ll also see the healer pulling crap when he or she is bored. The time spent out of combat is minimal, and sometimes nonexistent (especially when Derp DPSer #1 feels the tank is pulling too slowly and/or not getting big enough groups and then decides to move things along). When do you actually have a chance to kick someone?
In an ideal world, give and take would work this out here. The tank would take the “hint” and increase the pace, thereby making everybody happy, right? But there comes a point where the tank either does not want to or is incapable of increasing the pace further, for whatever reason that’s just as legit as Mr. Pullfaster’s desire to go faster. Unfortunately, this type doesn’t cease pulling just because you ask – they persist in a behavior that’s annoying to tank/healer and possibly deadly. In essence, they give no ground to the other members of the party who want to be a bit more chill.
So let people get kicked during combat. If the group dies as a result of kicking said person, then that’s karma. If they don’t and they’re happier for having done so, then the game experience has been improved for more people, and not just the one person now no longer present.
That Was an Accident! 
Yes, yes and more yes
Yes!
Very very yes. It’s insane how bad LFDs have gotten. I get nervous trying a new role like tanking because of behavior like these jerkbags. There really does need to be a way to punish the idiots without giving the rest of the community a migraine. Spot on!
It’s also a question of endurance – once you start, how long can you hold out? As I am discovering, inconsiderate-but-not-necessarily-lethal behavior is the norm, and it’s probably pretty obvious that the fact is getting to me. I’ll probably keep on tanking – I have enough DPSers and I have QQed about the wait time since before I knew what waiting for an hour for a group to pop was) – but I’m far more likely to be short tempered when doing so.
As a tank, I consider myself the leader of the party (regardless of who actually has that status), and I don’t condone sassing off or being a better-than-thou-smartass when I’m around. Without the ability to votekick freely, there’s nothing I can do to prevent the 13 year old boy (or the 45 year old woman) from being a jerk to me or other people in the party, and I hate that.
My assumption is that they put these restrictions in play because once a vote is proposed, the player will almost certainly be kicked. Even if it was a vote for the wrong player or there’s no real reason for it.
What I find indefensible is the increasing kick timer on the player being kicked. I’m sorry, but if someone has fucked with others badly enough that their kick timer is at four godforsaken hours, they should be handed a temp ban or at the very least prevented from queueing for that 4 hours – not *protected*. I can sort of understand being protected after the first kick, but repeated infractions? No.
Do you read penny arcade at all? They had a relevant comic a couple of days ago. LoL-based, working off the Karma system.
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/02/18
Is it wrong that I am to the point where I almost don’t care if it was a vote for the wrong player or there’s no real reason for it? I want to be able to kick people freely, even to the point of accepting collateral damage (which may, at times, include myself).
Maybe they could use the good ol’ Three Strikes rule – after you get kicked three times or leave a party three times, you get Deserter status. (Also, I don’t know exactly what triggers Deserter status, because sometimes I’ve left a party and not had it.)
Given the likelihood of changes happening, this comic may be better:
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/01/14
SAVE THE KITTENS.
Deserter triggers if you leave the party within the first 15 minutes of the instance, and only the first person to leave the party gets Deserter. Everyone after that is free to leave. Probably a fix so that if you’re in a dungeon in an awkward range, got a party after forever and the tank drops on zone-in, you don’t have to wait another minor eternity before you can decide to stuff it. Or something.
Note to self: make somebody else quit first.
You can leave after the first boss is downed and not incur deserter status, as well.
Hear hear — from your mouth to the devs’ ears! I also love the tag “maybe someday will be better”.
Hope springs eternal!
I sincerely doubt anybody who could actually do something reads this blog, but the forums kinda terrify the bejeesus outta me, so I’ll have to be content with at least having vented.
Totally agree! I just wish those people would get a hint and quit playing. Maybe Blizz’s load-screen tool tip isn’t big enough? “Being polite while in a group with others will get you invited back!”
We had one in a LFR, a druid who decided to pull Garalon while most of the group was at the top of the stairs eating, then solo’d the boss for 8 minutes while the rest of us were dead (can’t release, can’t leave instance, can just sit there). Vote to kick doesn’t work while in combat, and despite all of us telling him to “just die already” I bet he was just snickering to himself while he continued to show us how “leet” he was. /fume
There’s one problem with that tip – it DOESN’T get you invited back, not with the random machine that is LFD. There have been a handful of people I’ve friended thanks to the Battletag thingus and we group up together as a result, but only a handful … and I run a TON of LFD stuff (for some reason). So politeness has no clear incentive other than not pissing off people in your immediate vicinity. Some folks enjoy picking fights as well … or just being a jerk, like Mr. Solololol there. D:
I wish one could at least release and sit outside the darn instance when somebody’s still alive. It’s not like it lets you enter when combat is in progress, so why not let folks chill and regroup? It may or may not help with another issue I’ve noticed – once somebody dies in LFR, they tend to go AFK.
I think Blizzard’s concern is the following situation (which happened):
A Prot Warrior, Discipline Priest, Rogue, and Hunter join as a group.
The PUG is a enhancement shaman. So they kick him because he’d share loot with the hunter. Next PUG is a DPS DK. So they kick him because he’d share loot with the warrior. Next DPS is a Mage. So they kick him because he’d share loot with the priest. Next PUG is a boomkin. They finally don’t kick him.
There were also cases where a group of four decided to be complete jerks and literally sit in the dungeon kicking anyone who joined for an hour, just to amuse themselves.
I’ll agree that the current system is ridiculous where you can’t kick a solo griefer in a PUG, but there’s a reason so many restrictions were added in the first place. Mention you’re new to the dungeon? Get kicked. Mess up and die on a boss encounter? Get kicked. People wanted other experienced people and had little to no tolerance for anyone else.
Is the current system better overall? I’m not sure, but I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make it.
Absolutely, reality isn’t as clear cut. You can probably thank my experiences and the resulting, ever-growing feelings of “WTF IS THIS SHEEYIT” for that. Because I have not experienced the situations you’ve described but have been regularly exposed to the ones I’ve mentioned in this post, I just want to be able to kick people whenever and whereever. (Righteous Fury indeed!) I’m tired of not being able to stop them or even get them killed most of the time, and I just want some way to punish them for behaving like jackasses.
You’re right in that the current restrictions didn’t pop up out of nowhere. There were genuine issues and concerns that they addressed. I want the rules to be relaxed because it’s impossible to prevent or plan for every situation in which someone might get kicked unfairly. This seems to be what we’re trying to do now, but it is to the detriment of LFD groups and even the community as a whole. And while I’m advocating for more freedom in being able to kick folks, I am positive that being able to kick someone from a group without any restrictions whatsoever will NEVER occur.
It’d be interesting to know the numbers behind LFD at different levels, if such a thing were possible. Say you had a group sitting there kicking people who get pugged in – I wonder, what are the chances of encountering them again if you requeue after getting kicked? Would it be vastly different between say, level 40 and level 85? I’ve had some situations where somebody dropped and/or got kicked from the party and apparently queued up again, only to get (el oh el karma?) the same party again. The last time this happened, it was the tank. He dumped us after we died once at Taran Zhu, but it must’ve been after the 15 minute timer that Leit mentioned above, because he was able to requeue. Uuuuuunfortunately he got us again. The tank zoned in again, realized the situation, pulled Taran Zhu and dumped us – again.
Tanks are in short supply and groups already in progress get first priority. The queueing logic also doesn’t bother to take into account whether the player queueing was just kicked or left. So it happens occasionally that a tank will leave a dungeon, requeue and find himself with the same group of players he just insulted.
Happened to me back in cata when a tank pulled a couple of groups in Tol’vir, dropped and got shunted back in just after we finished killing them all. Just said “wtf you noobs” and dropped again, disregarding the fact that we killed his parting gift with no tank…
As for the situations Balkoth’s talking about… yeah, they’re obscure edge cases, where having no recourse to a single problematic player is orders of magnitude more common.
This was actually a real problem in Cata. Gear – especially well itemized gear – was harder to get, partially because of the difficulty and length of Cata dungeons. In Mists, not only are dungeons quicker and easier, the alternate gearing processes are also easier and can be done without time spent in a dungeon. To me, that sounds like this is now an outdated issue.
“This seems to be what we’re trying to do now, but it is to the detriment of LFD groups and even the community as a whole. And while I’m advocating for more freedom in being able to kick folks, I am positive that being able to kick someone from a group without any restrictions whatsoever will NEVER occur.”
I imagine you’ve heard the phrase that goes something like “Would rather 100 guilty go free than imprison 1 innocent?” Which is better for the community – 10 groups with somewhat toxic environments where you can’t kick the person or 1 group where someone gets kicked completely unfairly? That’s a serious question, I’m curious about your opinion.
I think the problems largely started in Cataclysm with heroics that were actually somewhat difficult. People had little to no patience for others screwing up, especially after they had already completed the dungeon a bunch of times.
You might recall they removed the ability to invite people to LFD groups as well, because groups of 3-4 would kick someone to bring in a friend for the final boss. I actually did have that happen once in Wrath – I was tanking on an alt in Heroic Halls of Lightning and as we ran up to Loken I was removed from the group by four guildmates. I made an alt on their server, asked why I was kicked, and they said they were bringing in a guildie for the final boss.
“It’d be interesting to know the numbers behind LFD at different levels, if such a thing were possible….Would it be vastly different between say, level 40 and level 85?”
I think making less restrictions for pre-max level would work better than max level ones.
Here’s another question for you, though – say a person joins a heroic dungeon. One of the people in their group is a DPS with no gems/enchants and pulling like 10k DPS. With less restrictive vote-kicks, what do you think will happen? Do you think the group will try to help the person? Or do you think they’ll just instantly kick him for being terrible?
“I imagine you’ve heard the phrase that goes something like “Would rather 100 guilty go free than imprison 1 innocent?” Which is better for the community – 10 groups with somewhat toxic environments where you can’t kick the person or 1 group where someone gets kicked completely unfairly? That’s a serious question, I’m curious about your opinion.”
In this situation (LFD), I’d argue that ten groups with a somewhat toxic environment where there is no remedy for the situation is ultimately more destructive to the greater WoW community/experience as a whole than the one group where someone gets kicked completely unfairly. The somewhat toxic environment where you can do nothing contributes to a slowly growing, ever increasing sense that “the community” – or modes such as LFD where you interact with others – is falling apart. It is one regular contributor to social malaise, if you will.
I also suspect that this sort of thing has become a self fulfilling prophecy – since they’re going to be jerks, I’ll be a jerk, which in turn makes them be jerks – and I think it can gain increasing momentum over time. It’s not as though magically gaining the ability to kick people would change or even reverse this process – but having agency and consequence makes a big difference in how people feel about what they’re doing.
That person who has gotten kicked unfairly hasn’t suffered an injustice. It sucks, to be sure, because it wasn’t fair. But it was also, in a way, the luck of the draw – it’s partially a result of who they ended up with, which of course they had little control over. As noted before, they haven’t been prevented from queueing again with Deserter status, and the system seems to take into account whether or not a person has been kicked before if someone initiates a kick again, which may prevent a subsequent unfair kick from occurring.
“You might recall they removed the ability to invite people to LFD groups as well, because groups of 3-4 would kick someone to bring in a friend for the final boss.”
For better or worse, the vast majority of my WoW experience has been since Cata, which is when I came back to the game. (I am apparently a strange duck for starting up again during Cata.) Still, I would totally support preserving the inability to invite people to LFD groups. If you kick someone, the only way you can get another person in is via the requeue in LFD. Maybe you’ll get your buddy in, but you probably won’t.
“I think making less restrictions for pre-max level would work better than max level ones.”
They could also increase the rules over time or different level blocks, in order to be appropriate for the grouping tendencies of that particular subset. Just for the hell of it, though – what if it went in reverse? A ton of restrictions on lowbie groups, but almost none once you hit 90?
“Here’s another question for you, though – say a person joins a heroic dungeon. One of the people in their group is a DPS with no gems/enchants and pulling like 10k DPS. With less restrictive vote-kicks, what do you think will happen? Do you think the group will try to help the person? Or do you think they’ll just instantly kick him for being terrible?”
All of the above.
It’s impossible to predict the personalities you’ll wind up with. You’ll have some who will follow the path of least resistance – hell, if the bosses still die and the person isn’t causing trouble, they may just carry that person along. You’ll have the ones who want to make a point or blame the low DPS for the wipe, and accordingly initiate a kick. You’ll have the ones like me, who do, in fact, try to help people. (Although I should probably note that sometimes, help isn’t wanted. Heh.)
Also, I have BEEN that person, and my poor rogue isn’t even out of Lich King dungeons yet! In fact, I suck so bad at being a rogue that I actually inspired people in a random LFD group to insult me. They also quoted Recount at me after every pack of trash, but for whatever reason, they did not kick me – possibly because they were feeling indulgent, possibly because they were loling too hard, who knows.
Yeah when we had it the other way we were ruled by the party of trolls. Now we’re ruled by the single troll. Whats worse? I can’t say. I bet a lot of people will say the single troll but they may have never had the pleasure of doing a instance all the way to the final boss only to get kicked for no reason.
What if they kept it so you can’t invite people to a LFD group?
that won’t stop people from being dicks. I had some former guild members that would que as a 4 group then kick the last person at the end of the run just to be dicks then they would finish the run. They were assholes and it wasn’t an uncommon practice.
Begging your pardon, but it is an uncommon practise. You’re talking about an edge case so obscure that many players won’t even believe that the behaviour exists. Meanwhile the problems we’re facing with bad players being unable to be kicked are so pervasive as to be instantly recognised by anyone in the community.
I think a possible solution might be something along the lines of this:
A player initiates a kick by selecting the player they want to kick and then choosing from (let’s say) five predetermined common reasons Blizzard thinks someone ought to be kicked for. (e.g. afk for too long, griefing, refusing to play their selected role – you get the idea)
The other player (less the one player in question) receive a randomized list of the four other players in the group, with a heading that says “A Vote – to – Kick has been initiated. They can choose a player from that list to vote for or they can decline to vote. They are not informed by the system who the kick was initiated for. Next they must choose the same reason to kick that was selected by the initiator.
If a majority of players vote to kick the same player who was chosen by the initiator, and for the same reason selected, the kick is executed, regardless of ANY other circumstances, such as combat, loot rolls, etc. I think this may be the closest we can come to a solution, though of course, like any other solution, it could certainly be manipulated as well, but then so can the current system. I think this is the best shot at a democratic system without making it easy kick people without any thought involved.
My two cents, anyway.
An interesting idea. My concern would be that human laziness would mess it all up, though – what if instead of picking the actual reason, they just clicked the first one? Or if, instead of selecting the person they meant to, they accidentally clicked on the name just below? (I must admit that at times when I am successful kicking people, I rarely type in a full reason – it’s usually something like “Derp” or “El oh el no.”)
I was noting in LFR the other night that a certain number of attempts to initiate a kick have to be received before anyone sees the prompt to agree or disagree with getting rid of a player. What if we adopt that system (more or less) for LFD – everybody other than the target player in the 5 man group has to individually initiate a kick before receiving the prompt – so if somebody never does, then the kick does not take place.
In sum, no reasons – no restrictions – individuals acting on their own and coming to consensus. The inability to invite people to a LFD would be preserved so there is no benefit in, say, four guildmates kicking the fifth, non-guildmate player in order to invite their friend. But the group can still get rid of the problem person.
Had a detailed rebuttal here but then an unplanned restart stole it.
Don’t like the LFR system for LFD because:
a) It doesn’t tell nablets it’s there. No popup box from x player.
b) Nice people don’t like to initiate but trolls don’t care.
c) I always forget what I’ve bound to ‘menu’ anyway.
d) LFR doesn’t require consensus from the entire group, just a part of it.
Whazza nablet? (I’m also okay with an anonymous “Do you want to kick So-and-so?” box.)
Why do you think nice people don’t like to initiate? I initiate votekicks all the time when I think someone else isn’t behaving nicely, and I’m generally considered too damn nice for my own good.
I have no idea what you bound to menu either.
Then why not adopt the LFR system if everybody but the target player has to agree to the kick?
Newbie -> noob -> nab -> nablet. I append ‘let’ to lots of stuff. Mrs. Leit is used to being referred to as ‘wifelet’ by now…
Um… as for nice people… maybe projection? Might be confirmation bias… the nice guys in my guild don’t like initiating, and even some of the trolls will let a hell of a lot slide before they hit that button.
Bindings change per character because SCIENCE. Experimentation is science, right?
Because having to have 4 people independently confirm without a spurring event isn’t likely to happen, but if the four people are an organised group of trolls it’ll be eay as pie? I know I just said having 4 person trollgroups is rare, but the LFD kick system should be as friendly as possible to disparate groups of individual players. Think about the report system – a lot of the frustration expressed about it centers on how there’s no transparency with the results, it’s vague, and it doesn’t seem to do anything. That’s because of a lack of feedback. At least in the current system, while the feedback is often unpleasant – 4 hour kick, lololo – you’ll get feedback and you’ll know what happened and why. LFR system doesn’t have that.
I’m to the point where I may let one or two things slide (learning curve and all that, right?), but it depends on the thing and also what I’m doing at the time.
Not too long ago, Dasch had a party in Sunken Temple (I should so dig up the screenshots) where a dominant personality type DPS derailed the other two DPS (one may or may not have been a friend, it was hard to tell). They didn’t even bother coming along with the tank and heals (me). They preferred to go their own route and then tell the tank to come to where they were. So basically the tank and Dasch soloed almost 2/3rds of the place.
There were two reasons I never touched the kick button – I suspected that it wouldn’t pass due to potential follower person, and also OMFG HEALING OH GOD PANIC. I gotta FOCUS!
Just to prove that karma is alive and well, said jerk and the rest of the DPS showed up for the boss fight (jerk was at about half health). I was feeling mad because they had spent so much time lolzing and telling the warrior tank to use a two hander (not to mention NOT DPSING WITH US), so I didn’t heal him/her. It just so happened that when the Shade of Erikanus slept the tank and turned on somebody else (as he always does), he picked the jerk, and jerk died almost instantly. Jerk then cursed me out, so I left the group without ressing him/her. Too bad it was a short walk back to the dungeon… oh well.
But a lot of the time, I’ll try to kick ASAP the moment somebody starts being a better-than-thou type smartass, telling other people what they’re doing wrong in a non-constructive way, getting us killed unnecessarily, and/or generally being a pisser. Even though it doesn’t work as much as I would like, it’s the only darn tool available to me and I am not going to sit there and let this party end on a sour note just because somebody wanted to get their jollies in one way or another at the expense of others.
Speaking of feedback, I’d actually like the kicked person to see the reason they got kicked, even if all I type in usually is something like “Derp.”
They won’t allow the reason to be shown for the same reason they don’t allow arena chat or custom win messages in pet battles. Too much potential for abuse. MOBA/ARTS games have traditionally been the reference point for trash talk, and they don’t want the chance of it in their persistent world. (IMPLEMENT KARMA PLZKTHX)
I used to play a facebook game called Battle Stations – flash animesque steampunk airship thing that allowed custom win/loss messages. It was really cool! I enjoyed seeing what the person had come up with, and crafting my own taglines. Really miss that with stuff like pet battles especially.
Pingback: Group Quest #104: Expect the Unexpected | Group Quest
Pingback: Do Blogs Have Terrible Twos? | That Was an Accident!